Apakah Ekaristi?

Malaysia Herald On-line telah menyiarkan satu artikel tulisan Fr. Paderi Ron Rolheiser yang bertajuk “Ekaristi sebagai perayaan setiap hari”.

Fr. Rolheiser telah mendefinisikan Ekaristi atau Misa Kudus sebagai

“Ekaristi ialah menjadi satu perjamuan keluarga, perayaan komuniti, satu tempat seperti meja dapur dan ruang tamu, di mana kita berkumpul dengan sesama, untuk berkongsi hidup seharian, merayakan perayaan istimewa dengan orang lain, untuk menasihati dan menangis bersama apabila hidup penuh dengan dukacita serta berhimpun bersama demi kebaikan bersama.”

Adakah keterangan ini benar-benar menggambarkan ajaran Katolik yang sebenarnya tentang Misa Kudus? Adakah Ekaristi hanya sekadar suatu ‘perjamuan’ sahaja (seperti yang difahami oleh umat Protestan) atau satu tempat seperti meja dapur (!).  Mengikut ajaran Katolik, Ekaristi ialah Tubuh dan Darah Kristus yang sebenar-benarnya. Ekarisiti Kudus adalah suatu Sakramen. Adakah Tubuh dan Darah Kristus hanya dilihat sebagai suatu ‘perjamuan’ atau disamakan seperti sebuah meja dapur (!).

Yesus Kristus terjadi dalam Ekaristi Kudus semasa upacara Korban Misa Kudus.

Untuk keterangan lanjut, sila layari pautan ini:

http://katolik.wordpress.com/2007/06/27/apakah-misa-kudus/

http://katolik.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/apakah-misa-kudus-part-ii/

http://katolik.wordpress.com/2007/06/30/konsep-korban/

Kyrie eleison!

Rujukan:

http://www.heraldmalaysia.com/news/storydetails.php/2824-1-19-Ekaristi-sebagai-perayaan-setiap-hari

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  1. Pace

    Brother,
    1. Who we need to come together there is Jesus the Messiah, as recorded in the Book that we pious or join the church?
    2. If we follow the church we mean there is more noble than the Book of the Word of God the Most Holy? Which is more noble? Church or the Book?
    3. If we follow the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, as in the Book, there we sin?
    4. Why you should give priority to the church than the Book of God’s Word?
    5. Is there a Word of God (al-Kitab) is not really telling the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, when compared with the teachings of the church?
    6. Is there a church that absolute power over the Book of God’s Word?
    7. Is there a church to believe more than the Word of God?
    8. Who are you so unable to overestimate the church than the Word of God?

    Shalom

    P / S
    If what I write here is also removed by the author, I prayed and prayed to God Almighty, Supreme Court and the Supreme fair and truthful, so that the author’s brother will be judged in advance and Sadom and Gemorrah later imposed penalties as severe as the residents of Sheba in the Day of Resurrection.

    Respons:
    From where did you get your ‘Bible’ from?
    Who appointed you to be the infallible interpreter of the Word of God?
    It is not between the Church and the Word of God, but rather it is between the Church and YOU. Should I pick you instead of the Church (the one founded by Jesus)? Should I listen to you OR should I listen to the Church of Christ?
    My last question would be: WHO ARE YOU?

  2. Pace@Jeff

    Brother,
    You did not answer my question. How can I answer you. Therefore, answer my question first then I will answer all inquiries you.

    God the Most High will give you mercy and peace to you.

    Response:
    As I said, you have no authority to interpret the Holy Bible and declare it as the Truth. Private interpretation is allowed but it should never contradict the formal teaching of the Church. Heresy will not be tolerated because it is false teaching and will lead many souls to Hell. It is pointless to answer your questions. If you are not willing to answer my questions, further lengthy comment from you will not be read and instead be deleted immediately.

  3. Jeff@Pace

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    So here, to whom the church? According to what we are taught to all men equal rights given by God the Most High. Therefore, given human right to interpret it. Human rights must be given religious Christians and believe in the entire contents of Scripture. The answer is that all people who believe in Jesus the Messiah who is entitled to provide the commentary. People who believe will be led by the Holy Spirit in understanding and implementing all contained in the Scripture.

    I hope you can answer all the questions asked by me. If not how the question could be resolved.

    God the Most High will give you mercy and peace to you.

    Response:
    You ASSUMED to have been given the RIGHT and AUTHORITY to interpret the Bible? Can you prove it? How do you know that your own private interpretation is the most accurate? Even before we can start this discussion, how do you know that you have the most accurate Bible?

  4. Jeff

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    The question here is related to whether the Church interpretation is correct or not with the same question that you ask me. Does the Church interpretation is valid and true? Who is the Church? Congregation or group religionist? You sure will know the answer. Answer my question first and then I will answer your questions also.

    I’d like to ask you also. Who gives breath to you to survive? Is not He the Most High gave to all the creatures of his creation? He was the Most Holy mercy and grace to us all. Is the Church of mercy and grace? Does the Church that God has the power to revive people from death that dominated Day of Recompense? Why do not you dare say to me whom the Church is but fun to play with words only the Church authorities? Is the Church giving breath, provision and day to you? Does the Church control the minds of you all that you can not afford to think as a human creation that God Most High? Does the Church is the absolute authority of God’s Word is the Holy Church that is more powerful than God the Most High?

    God the Most High will give you mercy and peace to you.

    Response:
    Are you then the ‘Church’, may I ask, sir? If the Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ, then whom shall I believe? You? Jesus has given the authority and power to His Church aka ‘my church’. At present, ‘my church’ as mentioned in the Holy Bible is the Catholic Church, no other. Having said these, you next questions are irrelevant. So now, should I believe my own private interpretation, interpretation of the Church or your interpretation? I am sure you know the answer. So, please answer my questions, if you have any.

  5. Jeff@Pace

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    Church is one of the groups of Christians who have their own beliefs and forms of worship. Christian Church and church (Ecclesia, “Assembly”) are used to denote both a Christian association of people and a place of worship. In the phenomenological sense there are many such associations of people that call themselves Christian churches. In the New Testament the term church or assembly is used for local communities and in a universal sense to mean all believers.

    We tend to distinguish between the Church as the universal body of Christ and individual organizations. To avoid confusion, the individual organizations are often referred to as “denominations”. We also accept the Apostles’ creed, so we agree that the Church is one and universal. However we tend to see its unity and universality as being a spiritual matter. It is a consequence of our unity in Christ. It need not be reflected in a single organization.

    We do not believe that the Church is infallible. Indeed they believe that it has made errors. We do accept that the Holy Spirit guides it. However since the Church is made up of human beings, it may take wrong turns and have to be corrected or renewed..

    Since us believe that organizations and leaders may go astray, organizational continuity is not as important. We are primarily concerned with whether a group’s views and practices are consistent with the Bible, and to a lesser extent with the early Church. This has more importance than whether a group can show that its leaders trace their pedigrees back through a continuous set of bishops to the Apostles.

    We do not place as much emphasis on either the Church as an organization or on the authority of its leaders. We see the Christian community as important. But we are not convinced that the sort of authority Catholics and Orthodox lodge in the leadership has justification in the Bible, nor that it has worked out well. Indeed we tend to see the Catholic hierarchy and canon law as being very similar to the Jewish leaders and legal tradition which Jesus opposed.

    We do not normally confess their sins directly to a pastor. This means that we do not have the same kind of detailed supervision of their lives that Catholics do. This is one reason that there is no need for canon law: the moral components of canon law evolved to guide priests as they supervised their members’ lives.

    There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to each approach. At its worst, the Catholic approach can turn into barren legalism. Personal reports from Catholic friends suggest that it may also lead to dishonesty. (I’m told that it is very naive for me to assume that all Catholics confess to the priest honestly.) However we practice runs the risk of encouraging members to be morally lax. The detailed supervision provided by regular confession is one of the primary methods of accountability. To replace this, many groups encourage members to meet together in small groups or as partners. In these groups they are expected to share enough about their lives that they can hold each other accountable before God.

    We also accept the characterization of the Church as one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic. However we believe in the holy catholic Church, we are using the term “catholic” in its original meaning of “universal”. That is, we are pointing to the fact that all Christians are united because of our common relationship with Christ. We do not identify the unity of the Church with a single organization such as the Catholic Church. Indeed they find that whole approach odd, given that there are now at least two major groups claiming to be identical with the universal church: the Catholics and the Orthodox. (Some other groups make this claim as well, such as the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.)
    Our traditionally have identified two or three key marks of a true church. Most us writers believe that in order to have a true church, the Gospel must be properly proclaimed, and the sacraments properly administered. By proper, it is normally meant that all the essential Scriptural aspects of the Gospel are preached, and that it is not adulterated by other things. Similarly, the sacraments are administered as they are defined in the Bible, and we are not combined with superstitions or other improper additions. Some writers identify church discipline as a third essential mark of a true church. However others regard it as important but not essential. That is, we would not reject a church as being a true church because it has not managing to maintain discipline among all its members.

    Shallom

    Response:
    The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Therefore, the Church is infallible. No authority on earth can judge the Church to be fallible. “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 16:18]. Also “… Christ is the head of the church. [Ephesians 5:23]. “… the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.[1 Timothy 3:15].

    Having said this, I would like to ask a few questions:
    1. What is the name of your church?
    2. Who is the head of your church?
    3. Who founded your church?
    4. What bible do you use in your church?

  6. Jeff@Pace

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    Having said this, I would like to ask a few questions:

    What is the name of your church?

    We also accept the characterization of the Church as one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic. However we believe in the holy catholic Church, we are using the term “catholic” in its original meaning of “universal”. That is, we are pointing to the fact that all Christians are united because of our common relationship with Christ. We do not identify the unity of the Church with a single organization such as the Catholic Church.

    We are followers of Jesus Christ, Redeemer, namely the King who has been sent to us. We are a congregation of Catholic means “Universal” and not make a civilization and as the authorities race to our faith.

    Who is the head of your church?

    Superintendent and head of our congregation is Jesus the Messiah. We do not like the brother who prefer the believer and the church say they are. If they are using the church as his messenger name Peter Simon as the church is wrong because they never last that man from sin. Say to us and others that you never sin? Ask clergy to the Pope and whether they had never sinned? Only Jesus Christ alone is qualified to be head of the congregation and also head of the prophets and messengers and those who believe in him.

    Who founded your church?

    We believe that Jesus the Messiah is the basic pillar and policies that form the congregation that the church (those who believe in Jesus Christ as Savior to warn). Messenger Peter was as follows menyatakannya in Act4 :8-12

    Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people of Israel:” If we this day are judged for a good deed [done] to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well , “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you Crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.” `This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief Cornerstone.” “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    See the story when Jesus Christ chose the messengers to teach his teachings to the Jews, he was told that he was implicitly the basis for building the congregation. He never commanded us to believe in the prophets, but believe he alone. Therefore we believe that Jesus Christ is the founder of the church congregation and not the messenger that Simon Peter.

    The Apostle Peter himself explained in the Bible on whom the church was founded. He said that Jesus was the cornerstone: This Jesus is the stone rejected by you the builders which has become the cornerstone. There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved (Acts 4:11-12).

    To have a Biblical basis for the papacy, the Roman Catholic church neglects the numerous passages such as the one above which clearly teach that Christ is the head and foundation of the church, and quotes a short part of a passage from the Gospel of Matthew. They neglect to realize that even if the church was founded on Peter, there is nothing in this passage to infer that his status was passed on to the popes. I quote that passage here, with a few verses which precede it, and will add to our understanding.

    They replied, “some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “And you, who do you say that I am?”

    “You are the Messiah,” Simon Peter answered, “the Son of the living God!”

    Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of Jonah! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are “Rock,” and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:14-18). In Greek, the original language of the New Testament, Christ calls Peter “Rock” (masculine gender) then says “on this rock” (feminine gender) I will build my church. What is the rock on which the church is built? The usual Catholic interpretation is Peter, but the difference in gender makes this questionable. Then, just five verses ahead, Jesus reproves Peter with such severity that He calls him Satan. In the context itself then, it is equally possible that the “rock” upon which the church is founded is found in the statement that Peter made, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

    If we will let the passages in other parts of the Bible that refer to the same subject help us decide who it is that the church is founded upon, we find that it is Christ. No one can lay a foundation other than the one that has been laid, namely Jesus Christ (1·Corinthians 3:11).

    Peter certainly should have understood whether the church was founded on himself or on Christ, and he wrote that it was on Jesus Christ: For Scripture has it: “See, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion, an approved stone, and precious. He who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken.” The stone is of value for you who have faith. For those without faith, it is rather, “A stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone.” It is likewise “an obstacle and stumbling stone.” Those who stumble and fall are the disbelievers in God’s word; it belongs to their destiny to do so (1 Peter 2:6-8). Peter understood Christ to be the cornerstone, the foundation of the church, and was obviously referring to Him in this passage.

    Christ Himself said, Are you not familiar with this passage of Scripture: The stone rejected by the builders has become the keystone of the structure (Mark 12:10). The Jews understood that in saying this, Jesus was claiming to be their Messiah, and since they did not want Him to be their head they immediately tried to kill Him, stumbling on the stone, as the Scriptures had predicted. Later they succeeded, but He rose from the dead and became the stone upon which the church was founded. Will you accept Christ as the foundation and director of your life?

    Returning then, to Matthew 16:14-18, with this background from the Scriptures, it seems clear that The rock to which Jesus referred was not Peter himself, but his confession: You are the messiah, the Son of the living God.

    Even if this were not true, and Peter were the rock upon which the church was founded, there is still no Biblical reason to think that Peter’s authority was passed on to others, and that the popes are his successors. Neither is there reason to believe that this idea was accepted by the early church. In fact the idea of a “pope” developed a little bit at a time and it was only in 1870 that the infallibility of the pope became a dogma. Even then there was a strong opposition to the idea from within the Roman Catholic church itself. There is just no real foundation to the idea that one man, other than Jesus Christ Himself, has the authority over us that the Pope claims to have, although there are good reasons why he may want us to believe it.

    It is also rather confusing that the Pope ties his claim to authority, infallibility, and the right to have others bow down to him, to his being the successor to Peter. Peter certainly never claimed these things. Just the opposite! When one tried to bow before him he said, Get up! I am only a man myself (Acts 10:26).

    In addition, Paul found it necessary to rebuke Peter very severely, not because he was infallible, but because he was wrong. He wrote, When Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch I directly withstood him, because he was clearly in the wrong (Gal. 2:11). Nor was this the first big mistake that Peter made. We all remember how Peter denied Christ three times at the very moment of our Lord’s trial and condemnation. I don’t want to take away anything from this great apostle, but it is not logical to claim that the pope’s infallibility was handed down to him from a man who made mistakes and his authority over the church came from a man who refused to let people bow down to him.

    Since the true church is founded on Jesus Christ, we should find a church that does not preach another salvation based on works and sacraments, but one which has as its base the Holy Bible, and the one name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved. Since virtually everything that can be known about Christ is found in the Bible, don’t go to a church which has some other authority, whether it be the pope, the Book of Mormon, the Watch Tower, or even its own pastor’s alleged communications with God. If you can be comfortable in a church without taking your Bible, there is probably something wrong.

    What bible do you use in your church?

    Now we use the Bible Scripture is the Torah, the Prophets, the Gospel of Matthew written Messenger, Markus Assistant, Doctor Luke, and John Messenger. Letter carriers work, and Letters of the Apostles as a reference only and is not more important than Scripture. This is because the Messenger gives explanation to the problem and that the order is taken from Scripture, but not equal to Scripture.

    Having said this, I would like to ask a few questions:
    1. Does the Pope infallibility more than Jesus?
    2. Does the church infallibility more than Jesus?
    3. Who we need to come together there is Jesus the Messiah, as recorded in the Book that we pious or join the church?
    4. If we follow the church we mean there is more noble than the Book of the Word of God the Most Holy? Which is more noble? Church or the Book?
    5. If we follow the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, as in the Book, there we sin?
    6. Why you should give priority to the church than the Book of God’s Word?
    7. Is there a Word of God (Holy Book) is not really telling the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, when compared with the teachings of the church?
    8. Is there a church that absolute power over the Book of God’s Word?
    9. Is there a church to believe more than the Word of God?
    10. If you say ‘church’ is the Pope and priests, whether they are people that do not sin? Will Pope and priests had never sinned?
    11. What is ‘church’ you is not composed of human? Why did not you say and who state ‘church’ but you just stated that ‘the church’ brother is mystical body of Christ?
    12. Who is the ‘mystical body of Christ’? Is’ mystical body of Christ “is not human?
    Shallom

  7. Jeff@Pace,
    1. I find it strange that your church has no official name.
    2. Every Protestant churches will claim that Jesus is the head of their church. Let me paraphrase my question: Who is the president/chairman/leader etc of your congregation? Who elected him to be leader? Who elected the first leader of your church?
    3. Prove to me that your ‘unknown’ church is founded by Jesus.
    4. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use?

    To answer your questions:
    1. Does the Pope infallibility more than Jesus?
    2. Does the church infallibility more than Jesus?

    Answer: The Holy Roman Catholic Church is infallible because it it is the mystical body of Jesus. So your question is ridiculous. Your question sounds like this: Are your hands more ‘infallible’ than your head? The Pope is infallible when he is speaking ex-cathedra regarding faith and moral.

    3. Who we need to come together there is Jesus the Messiah, as recorded in the Book that we pious or join the church?

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. To be saved, one needs to join the Church.

    4. If we follow the church we mean there is more noble than the Book of the Word of God the Most Holy? Which is more noble? Church or the Book?

    Answer: Again, your question is ridiculous. The Holy Bible is free from error as declared by the Church. The Church has the authority given to her by Jesus. The Bible is compiled by the Church and the infallible interpreter is the Church. If you are the author of a book, which is more ‘noble’, the author or the book?

    5. If we follow the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, as in the Book, there we sin?

    Answer: In order to understand the true teachings of Jesus as we read them from the Bible, we need the Church to interpret them for us. Remember, before the Bible, we have the Sacred Tradition. The Bible itself is part of the Sacred Tradition, guarded by the Church.

    6. Why you should give priority to the church than the Book of God’s Word?

    Answer: It is not between the Church and the Bible. It is between the infallible teaching of the Church and your private fallible interpretation of the Word of God.

    7. Is there a Word of God (Holy Book) is not really telling the teachings of Jesus the Messiah, when compared with the teachings of the church?

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. Again, our private interpretation must conform to the Church’s interpretation.

    8. Is there a church that absolute power over the Book of God’s Word?

    You are asking the same question, again and again. The Church is the Guardian of the Holy Bible and she is the only infallible interpreter of the Bible.

    9. Is there a church to believe more than the Word of God?

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. Not everything is written in the Bible. Part of Jesus’ teaching is found in the Sacred Tradition.

    10. If you say ‘church’ is the Pope and priests, whether they are people that do not sin? Will Pope and priests had never sinned?

    Answer: The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Jesus and Mary never sin. The Pope and the priests are ordinary human beings. They can fall into sin.

    11. What is ‘church’ you is not composed of human? Why did not you say and who state ‘church’ but you just stated that ‘the church’ brother is mystical body of Christ?
    12. Who is the ‘mystical body of Christ’? Is’ mystical body of Christ “is not human?

    Answer: The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Those who remained united in the Church are part of the mystical body.

  8. Jeff@pace

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    Answer: The Holy Roman Catholic Church is infallible because it it is the mystical body of Jesus. So your question is ridiculous. Your question sounds like this: Are your hands more ‘infallible’ than your head? The Pope is infallible when he is speaking ex-cathedra regarding faith and moral.

    The question here is whether the Pope had never sinned? That each grain is considered holy Pope speak to you? Pope is human, my brother. Sure he was also sin. So now everyone will know this truth. Only Jesus Christ the only who had never sinned. Everyone acknowledges this truth. Pope did not escape from sin. If you say the Pope is immune from sin, this same Pope also like you to equate it with Jesus Christ. Only those who understand not only the Pope would say it was never innocent and perfect. Consult and understand the story of St.. Peter, my brother. He himself admitted that he had but my brother is the default state that the Pope is perfect. It’s funny what you say. Ask Pope whether he had not put through sin before he was elected Pope. Certainly he will answer and say that he did not escape from sin. So with this we all know that the Pope is never innocent and fallibility.

    It is also rather confusing that the Pope ties her claim to authority, infallibility, and the right to have others bow down to him, to his being the successor to Peter. Peter certainly never claimed these things. Just the opposite! When one tried to bow before him he said, Get up! I am only a man myself (Acts 10:26).

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. To be saved, one needs to join the Church.

    I mean here is, who should we follow Jesus Christ or whether the “Church”? We all admit that ‘the Church’ is composed of men. People do not ever escape from sin. Man can not save other people. Only Jesus Christ the only who can save all mankind. Pope and “Church” can not save people because they sin. We must follow Jesus Christ the only and follow all orders and instructions recorded in Scripture.

    Answer: Again, your question is ridiculous. The Holy Bible is free from error as declared by the Church. The Church has the authority given to her by Jesus. The Bible is compiled by the Church and the infallible interpreter is the Church. If you are the author of a book, which is more ‘noble’, the author or the book?

    Dalam persoalan ini saudara mengaku bahawa Kitab Suci itu bebas daripada kesalahan dan sempurna sifatnya. Oleh hal yang demikian, saudara juga mengaku bahawa Kitab Suci itu adalah kudus. Masalahnya sekarang adalah “Gereja” yang terdiri daripada ‘paderi dan Pope’ itu juga manusia dan tidak pernah terlepas daripada dosa dan tidak pernah terlepas daripada silap memberi tafsir. Manusia tidak sempurna , saudaraku. Pope dan Paderi tidak sempurna. Hanya Jesus Al-Masih sahaja yang sempurna.

    Answer: In order to understand the true teachings of Jesus as we read them from the Bible, we need the Church to interpret them for us. Remember, before the Bible, we have the Sacred Tradition. The Bible itself is part of the Sacred Tradition, guarded by the Church.

    Holy Tradition is only related to the oral teachings and practices of the messenger, my brother. They see and do once again what Jesus the Messiah did. It acted like it. Holy practice traditions such as foot washing, Holy Communion, Baptize, Homily and also some other things. Suspicion arises here, whether it is the Holy Tradition is never influenced by Hellenistic culture and unsure which grew rapidly at that time? Think, my brother.

    Brother also said that we should read to understand the story and teachings of Jesus the Messiah to his followers. If we could read, this also means we are also able to think. Are you located in the eye to other people? That analogy is easy to understand you. As long as we obey and believe in the Book Torah, the Prophets and the Gospel Book and follow all the teachings recorded in the Scripture, we will not be lost.

    Answer: It is not between the Church and the Bible. It is between the infallible teaching of the Church and your private fallible interpretation of the Word of God.

    My brother, I will not confuse this. I am sure and confident with my question to you. My brother does not want to speak because you doubt the answer you give yourself. Priority for our faith and follow the Scripture and not ‘the Church’. This is because the Scripture is holy and true. ‘Church’ never escape from sin. All men acknowledge that Scripture is holy and perfect. Are you not sin? So, whether you say yourself that never escape from sin, the same level as Scripture?

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. Again, our private interpretation must conform to the Church’s interpretation.

    My brother says that only “church” only right and say the Scripture is not more important than the messenger. We believed and believe that all that recorded in Scripture is true and there is none who can say it is lies and lies. The question, which you say ‘church’ only the right as if to deny that Scripture is not true. Everyone admitted that Scripture is more noble than “church” because Scripture is the Word of God is Life. Brother also said that the current “church” experience krisi. How ‘Church’ who experienced the crisis more noble than the Word of God the Most Merciful Holy Living? Not one man in this world who say Scripture is experiencing a crisis because Scripture is preserved and protected by the Lord Protector.

    Answer: You are asking the same question, again and again. The Church is the Guardian of the Holy Bible and she is the only infallible interpreter of the Bible.

    How ‘Church “could protect Scripture while” Church “which you say have a crisis. Only Allah is the Protector could protect only the Scripture and He mengatahui all that is contained in Scripture. See the Word of God that this life is my brother;

    Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong [hand], and His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, his reward [is] with Him, And His work before Him. He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the LAMBS with His arm, and carry [them] in His bosom, [and] gently lead those who are with young. Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span and calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance? Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [as] His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and [who] instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding? Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? [It is] He who sits above the circle of the earth and its inhabitants [are] like Grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. He brings the princes to nothing; He makes the judges of the earth useless. Scarcely shall they be planted, scarcely shall they be sown, and scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth, when He will also blow on them, and they will wither, and the whirlwind will take them away like stubble. “To whom then will you lichens Me, or [to whom] I shall be equal?” says the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high and see who has created these [things], Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of [his] power; Not one is missing. Why do you say, O Jacob, and speak, O Israel: “My way is hidden from the LORD, and my just claim is passed over by my God”? Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither Faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. He gives power to the weak, And to [those who have] no might He increases strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall fall Utterly but those who wait on the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. (Isaiah 40:10-14, 21-31)

    With quotes it, you still dare to say that “the Church” more powerful in all of Scripture protect the stain. Is “Church” is more powerful than God is Great! Consider their own. Only God the Almighty only the powerful.

    Answer: I don’t understand your question. Not everything is written in the Bible. Part of Jesus’ teaching is found in the Sacred Tradition.

    Do you reject what is taught by Jesus the Messiah as recorded in Scripture? Are the teachings contained in Scripture is a fraud? Indeed, Scripture never cheat. Holy Tradition can be influenced by other cultures. Assimilation occurs in the Holy Tradition is that a community can be accepted. Look at my brother, did Jesus the Messiah taught us to pray before the cross! Not my brother. That disbelief. Is Jesus the Messiah has taught us to worship the statue named after Saint? Not my brother. Jesus the Messiah did not teach us to worship the statue and cross. Right rude attitude that makes you a follower of the cross as an object during prayer. Not as a direct attitude of Jesus the Messiah who sanctify themselves from idolatry. Is this the attitude of “Church” brother who went astray and set up statues in places of worship? Indeed, Jesus the Messiah did not teach his students the messengers and do matter. It’s the attitude of disbelief that person. Still believed “the church” which again rejected the hypocrisy, O my brother?

    Answer: The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Jesus and Mary never sin. The Pope and the priests are ordinary human beings. They can fall into sin.
    Answer: The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Those who remained united in the Church are part of the mystical body.

    It seems you also admitted that the Pope and priests also had sin. So the question here is, who “church” is? All people can say that the church as a “mystical body of Christ”. While “Roman Catholic Church” itself says that “church” as a congregation that people who believe in Jesus the Messiah as Redeemer and Savior. Why are you saying it as “mystical body of Christ”? Who are members of a congregation “Church” you are? Man or what? Jesus the Messiah sent to all mankind. Scripture never says that Jesus the Messiah sent to the “mystical body of Christ”.

    Answers:
    ISSUE#1: The Pope is infallible when he is speaking EX-CATHDERA (which means ‘from the chair of St Peter’) regarding faith and moral. The Pope is the GUARDIAN of Truth. The Pope cannot introduce new doctrine or new teaching. Because the Pope is infallible, he is forbidden and not authorised to change God’s divine law or to change any of the dogma, doctrine and teaching of the Catholic Church. The Sacred Tradition is forever unchangeable for the simple reason that the Truth remains true forever.

    The last revelation from God ended when St John, the last apostle, died. The Church together with the Pope handed down what they have received, unaltered. The teaching of the present Pope cannot in any way contradict the teaching of the past popes. St Peter prevented others from bowing before him because these people intend to worship him as god (!) which is forbidden. Please do not interpret the Bible to suit your own argument.

    ISSUE#2: Jesus said: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” [Mat 16:18]. Now from this verse, we know that there is the Church of Christ (aka ‘my church’). The Church is defined as the mystical body of Christ. Also from the same verse, Jesus’ Church is INFALLIBLE.

    If one does not want to listen to the Church of Christ, who will he listen to? I don’t think you are the follower of Jesus, rather you are the follower of your own self, your own private interpretation of the Bible. You read the Bible and understand the Bible and interpret it as your personal opinion of the Word of God.

    ISSUE#3: Let me ask you a simple question: do you consider your private interpretation of the Bible as HOLY, PERFECT and FREE FROM ERROR (infallible). I never denied that Jesus is truly perfect, Man and God. Should I listen to you or the Church of Christ?

    ISSUE#4: What is the Sacred Tradition? Before the existence of the Holy Bible as we know it today, the doctrine and teaching of Jesus, since the beginning of the Church and the Apostles, were handed down from one generation to another by way of the mouth. The early Christians learnt their faith through listening. The Sacred Tradition is the dogma, doctrine and teaching of the Church of Christ which she received from Jesus. Again, should I believe you or the Church regarding the origin of the Sacred Tradition.

    ISSUE#5: It is simple to say that your own private interpretation of the Bible is NOT infallible. Your opinion regarding the Word of God is never free from error. Are you going to interpret the Bible for me? You ask me to think which I did. And sure enough my interpretation conform to the Church’s interpretation.

    ISSUE#6: You rejected the Church even though Jesus has given His full authority to the Church (‘my church’) as found in Mat 16:18. If you claim is true that the Church is fallible, then may I ask you this question: Are you infallible? ‘Allah’ is NOT the Christian God. The crisis of the Church is a different topic. We can discuss about it in different session. The Church is built by Jesus. If you have problem with the Church Jesus built, please pray hard, maybe Jesus will give you a direct answer. I never say that the Church is more powerful than God, but remember, the Church is the mystical body of Jesus. Is God more powerful than Jesus?

    ISSUE#7: If you reject the Sacred Tradition and believing in the Bible only (sola scriptura), then you are really a genuine Protestant. What else can I do for you? The chief sources of Truth come from the Sacred Tradition and the Holy Bible. I never say I rejected the Word of God. I said: I rejected your flaw interpretation of the Word of God.

    ISSUE#8: Do you accept the definition that says: The Church is the mystical body of Christ? “So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” [Romans 12:5]. If you can’t accept it, then you are actually rejecting the Holy Bible. Do you still believe in the Bible?

  9. Jeff@pace

    1. I find it strange that your church has no official name.
    We are adherents of the teachings of Jesus the Messiah and the name of our church is “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ the” nature and Spirit, Unity, Apostolic and Universal. We are not followers “Roman Katolic”. Did you know that “Roman” is the name of a civilization. How “Roman” population that Rome can be a religious ideology? Jesus the Messiah is not for the people of Rome, but for all people who believe and trust His only. Never even Scripture says that Jesus the Messiah sent to the Roman people and the name “church” should be named after people Rome. Disbelief. Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind and it is “Universal” that Catholic and not “Roman Catholic”.

    2. Every Protestant churches will claim that Jesus is the head of their church. Let me paraphrase my question: Who is the president/chairman/leader etc of your congregation? Who elected him to be leader? Who elected the first leader of your church?
    Jesus is the head of our Messiah. Our priest is Jesus the Messiah. Our leader is Jesus the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah among people who choose themselves as followers. The first selected among all those who believe he is the messenger. We believe in Scripture and life based on Scripture. Scripture can not be denied authentic and authenticity.

    3. Prove to me that your ‘unknown’ church is founded by Jesus.
    Have you ever read the Scripture that tells the story that Jesus the Messiah has chosen messenger. That’s the first church and the church founded by Jesus is the Messiah and not St. Peter. It seems you still do not understand again what I have to copy over to explain in detail what actually. Hypocrite attitude that they do not want to accept what is true.
    See the story when Jesus Christ chose the messengers to teach his teachings to the Jews, he was told that he was implicitly the basis for building the congregation. He never commanded us to believe in the prophets, but believe he alone. Therefore we believe that Jesus Christ is the founder of the church congregation and not the messenger that Simon Peter.
    The Apostle Peter himself explained in the Bible on whom the church was founded. He said that Jesus was the cornerstone: This Jesus is the stone rejected by you the builders which has become the cornerstone. There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved (Acts 4:11-12).
    To have a Biblical basis for the papacy, the Roman Catholic church neglects the numerous passages such as the one above which clearly teach that Christ is the head and foundation of the church, and quotes a short part of a passage from the Gospel of Matthew. They neglect to realize that even if the church was founded on Peter, there is nothing in this passage to infer that his status was passed on to the popes. I quote that passage here, with a few verses which precede it, and will add to our understanding.
    They replied, “some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “And you, who do you say that I am?”
    “You are the Messiah,” Simon Peter answered, “the Son of the living God!”
    Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of Jonah! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are “Rock,” and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:14-18). In Greek, the original language of the New Testament, Christ calls Peter “Rock” (masculine gender) then says “on this rock” (feminine gender) I will build my church. What is the rock on which the church is built? The usual Catholic interpretation is Peter, but the difference in gender makes this questionable. Then, just five verses ahead, Jesus reproves Peter with such severity that He calls him Satan. In the context itself then, it is equally possible that the “rock” upon which the church is founded is found in the statement that Peter made, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
    If we will let the passages in other parts of the Bible that refer to the same subject help us decide who it is that the church is founded upon, we find that it is Christ. No one can lay a foundation other than the one that has been laid, namely Jesus Christ (1•Corinthians 3:11).
    Peter certainly should have understood whether the church was founded on himself or on Christ, and he wrote that it was on Jesus Christ: For Scripture has it: “See, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion, an approved stone, and precious. He who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken.” The stone is of value for you who have faith. For those without faith, it is rather, “A stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone.” It is likewise “an obstacle and stumbling stone.” Those who stumble and fall are the disbelievers in God’s word; it belongs to their destiny to do so (1 Peter 2:6-8). Peter understood Christ to be the cornerstone, the foundation of the church, and was obviously referring to Him in this passage.
    Christ Himself said, Are you not familiar with this passage of Scripture: The stone rejected by the builders has become the keystone of the structure (Mark 12:10). The Jews understood that in saying this, Jesus was claiming to be their Messiah, and since they did not want Him to be their head they immediately tried to kill Him, stumbling on the stone, as the Scriptures had predicted. Later they succeeded, but He rose from the dead and became the stone upon which the church was founded. Will you accept Christ as the foundation and director of your life?
    Returning then, to Matthew 16:14-18, with this background from the Scriptures, it seems clear that The rock to which Jesus referred was not Peter himself, but his confession: You are the messiah, the Son of the living God.
    Even if this were not true, and Peter were the rock upon which the church was founded, there is still no Biblical reason to think that Peter’s authority was passed on to others, and that the popes are his successors. Neither is there reason to believe that this idea was accepted by the early church. In fact the idea of a “pope” developed a little bit at a time and it was only in 1870 that the infallibility of the pope became a dogma. Even then there was a strong opposition to the idea from within the Roman Catholic Church itself. There is just no real foundation to the idea that one man, other than Jesus Christ Himself, has the authority over us that the Pope claims to have, although there are good reasons why he may want us to believe it.
    Since the true church is founded on Jesus Christ, we should find a church that does not preach another salvation based on works and sacraments, but one which has as its base the Holy Bible, and the one name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved. Since virtually everything that can be known about Christ is found in the Bible, don’t go to a church which has some other authority, whether it be the pope, the Book of Mormon, the Watch Tower, or even its own pastor’s alleged communications with God. If you can be comfortable in a church without taking your Bible, there is probably something wrong.

    4. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use?
    Scripture has never been changed and amended. It remains and sacred. Scripture that we use is the same as Scripture Christians of other faiths. Does not the Scripture you have 5 Book of Moses? Are you the Book does not contain the Prophets? Does not the Scripture you have Viana Gospel written by messenger? Scripture is one and can not be changed.

    RESPONSE:

    1. I find it strange that your church has no official name.

    We are adherents of the teachings of Jesus the Messiah and the name of our church is “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ the” nature and Spirit, Unity, Apostolic and Universal. We are not followers “Roman Katolic”. Did you know that “Roman” is the name of a civilization. How “Roman” population that Rome can be a religious ideology? Jesus the Messiah is not for the people of Rome, but for all people who believe and trust His only. Never even Scripture says that Jesus the Messiah sent to the Roman people and the name “church” should be named after people Rome. Disbelief. Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind and it is “Universal” that Catholic and not “Roman Catholic”.

    Answer: There is no need to explain to me about the Roman Catholic Church. What was the year your church started by your founder? What is the name of your founder? Your church originated from which country?

    2. Every Protestant churches will claim that Jesus is the head of their church. Let me paraphrase my question: Who is the president/chairman/leader etc of your congregation? Who elected him to be leader? Who elected the first leader of your church?

    Jesus is the head of our Messiah. Our priest is Jesus the Messiah. Our leader is Jesus the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah among people who choose themselves as followers. The first selected among all those who believe he is the messenger. We believe in Scripture and life based on Scripture. Scripture can not be denied authentic and authenticity.

    Answer: So, did Jesus really appear in your church whenever your church assembled. Who are the first selected members of your church? It is inaccurate to say that you believe in the Scripture. Actually, you believe in your own interpretation of the Bible. No more, no less.

    3. Prove to me that your ‘unknown’ church is founded by Jesus.

    Have you ever read the Scripture that tells the story that Jesus the Messiah has chosen messenger. That’s the first church and the church founded by Jesus is the Messiah and not St. Peter. It seems you still do not understand again what I have to copy over to explain in detail what actually. Hypocrite attitude that they do not want to accept what is true.
    See the story when Jesus Christ chose the messengers to teach his teachings to the Jews, he was told that he was implicitly the basis for building the congregation. He never commanded us to believe in the prophets, but believe he alone. Therefore we believe that Jesus Christ is the founder of the church congregation and not the messenger that Simon Peter.
    The Apostle Peter himself explained in the Bible on whom the church was founded. He said that Jesus was the cornerstone: This Jesus is the stone rejected by you the builders which has become the cornerstone. There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved (Acts 4:11-12).

    Answer: From the Bible, did Jesus really built His Church and named it as “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”. Jesus did mention ‘my church’ but He did not mention “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ” church. There is NO EVIDENCE to support your claim. None from the Bible, and none from the world history. Ask any Protestant the name of the first Church ever built by Jesus. The answer is always the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I don’t think you can simply quote one of two verses from the Bible and says that this is the proof that Jesus founded “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”

    To have a Biblical basis for the papacy, the Roman Catholic church neglects the numerous passages such as the one above which clearly teach that Christ is the head and foundation of the church, and quotes a short part of a passage from the Gospel of Matthew. They neglect to realize that even if the church was founded on Peter, there is nothing in this passage to infer that his status was passed on to the popes. I quote that passage here, with a few verses which precede it, and will add to our understanding.
    They replied, “some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “And you, who do you say that I am?”
    “You are the Messiah,” Simon Peter answered, “the Son of the living God!”
    Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of Jonah! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are “Rock,” and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:14-18). In Greek, the original language of the New Testament, Christ calls Peter “Rock” (masculine gender) then says “on this rock” (feminine gender) I will build my church. What is the rock on which the church is built? The usual Catholic interpretation is Peter, but the difference in gender makes this questionable. Then, just five verses ahead, Jesus reproves Peter with such severity that He calls him Satan. In the context itself then, it is equally possible that the “rock” upon which the church is founded is found in the statement that Peter made, You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
    If we will let the passages in other parts of the Bible that refer to the same subject help us decide who it is that the church is founded upon, we find that it is Christ. No one can lay a foundation other than the one that has been laid, namely Jesus Christ (1•Corinthians 3:11).
    Peter certainly should have understood whether the church was founded on himself or on Christ, and he wrote that it was on Jesus Christ: For Scripture has it: “See, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion, an approved stone, and precious. He who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken.” The stone is of value for you who have faith. For those without faith, it is rather, “A stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone.” It is likewise “an obstacle and stumbling stone.” Those who stumble and fall are the disbelievers in God’s word; it belongs to their destiny to do so (1 Peter 2:6-8). Peter understood Christ to be the cornerstone, the foundation of the church, and was obviously referring to Him in this passage.
    Christ Himself said, Are you not familiar with this passage of Scripture: The stone rejected by the builders has become the keystone of the structure (Mark 12:10). The Jews understood that in saying this, Jesus was claiming to be their Messiah, and since they did not want Him to be their head they immediately tried to kill Him, stumbling on the stone, as the Scriptures had predicted. Later they succeeded, but He rose from the dead and became the stone upon which the church was founded. Will you accept Christ as the foundation and director of your life?
    Returning then, to Matthew 16:14-18, with this background from the Scriptures, it seems clear that The rock to which Jesus referred was not Peter himself, but his confession: You are the messiah, the Son of the living God.

    Answers: I never said that Peter built the Church of Christ. Who give you this idea? St Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic Church and this Church was founded/built by Jesus [Mat 16:18]. There is no need for you to make a lengthy statement. You are wasting time trying to prove something which is not an issue.

    Even if this were not true, and Peter were the rock upon which the church was founded, there is still no Biblical reason to think that Peter’s authority was passed on to others, and that the popes are his successors. Neither is there reason to believe that this idea was accepted by the early church. In fact the idea of a “pope” developed a little bit at a time and it was only in 1870 that the infallibility of the pope became a dogma. Even then there was a strong opposition to the idea from within the Roman Catholic Church itself. There is just no real foundation to the idea that one man, other than Jesus Christ Himself, has the authority over us that the Pope claims to have, although there are good reasons why he may want us to believe it.
    Since the true church is founded on Jesus Christ, we should find a church that does not preach another salvation based on works and sacraments, but one which has as its base the Holy Bible, and the one name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved. Since virtually everything that can be known about Christ is found in the Bible, don’t go to a church which has some other authority, whether it be the pope, the Book of Mormon, the Watch Tower, or even its own pastor’s alleged communications with God. If you can be comfortable in a church without taking your Bible, there is probably something wrong.

    Answer: The Church is a visible organisation. The head of the Church is Jesus Christ, whereas the Pope is His Vicar (the visible head of the Church on earth). Sola scripture is false. You have to study the Sacred Tradition in order to know the Truth. The word ‘pope’ means ‘papa’ or father. You won’t find the word ‘trinity’ in the Bible. Even the word ‘bible’ can’t be found in the Bible itself. To add more, the false doctrine ‘sola scripture’ is also not found in the Bible. The popes existed long before the Church compiled the Holy Bible. Jesus never mentioned the word ‘bible’. Nor has he instructed His followers to read the Bible!

    So, may I ask again, who is the leader of your church at the moment? Please answer my question, thank you.

    4. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use?

    Scripture has never been changed and amended. It remains and sacred. Scripture that we use is the same as Scripture Christians of other faiths. Does not the Scripture you have 5 Book of Moses? Are you the Book does not contain the Prophets? Does not the Scripture you have Viana Gospel written by messenger? Scripture is one and can not be changed.

    Answer: Please answer my questions. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use? Please be specific. Thank you.

  10. Jeff@Pace

    Havenu Shalom Aleichem,

    Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad,
    Baruckh Shem Ke’vod Malkhuto Le’olam Va’ed,

    Greetings from the Most High God to you,

    Beloved brother,

    Answer: There is no need to explain to me about the Roman Catholic Church. What was the year your church started by your founder? What is the name of your founder? Your church originated from which country?

    Year of establishment Congregation (Church) we are in, day and time, when Jesus Christ called the 12 Disciples of the group that many people (Mat 10:1, Mark 3:14, Luke 6:13) in the hilly areas. Founder of Congregation (Church) is our Jesus Christ. 12 Disciples are among the earliest believed, and believe in Jesus Christ, and they are First Congregation (Church). First Congregation (Church) came from Israel, namely the original Jesus Christ and not Rome. We do not prefer over Rome, because Rome is not the original birth place of Jesus Christ. Hope you will understand what I say.

    My brother, do not you try to say that Jesus Christ was built “Congregation (Church) Roman Catholic.” Jesus Christ has never been to Rome and He had never built Congregation (Church) in Rome and named Congregation (Church) he as a “Roman Catholic Church”. Hypocrisy, my brother.

    Yea, O people of hypocrisy. Did you know Symbolum Apostolicum (Apostles’ Creed) is never read by adding the words “Roman Catholic Church”?

    Sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,

    Mean

    The holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,

    First Christian believer has written Symbolum Apostolicum, and they never say of themselves as “Roman Catholic Church”. First Christian believer that identify themselves as “Catholic Church”. This is because they understand and know the meaning of Congregation (Church) itself which means Universal, One, Holy and Apostolic. Why are you doing not know about Symbolum Apostolicum we read every day? Why you are still not understood? Naturally, you already understand, but you do not want to understand. Attitude you like Pharisees and Sadducee. Know the full and smooth, but they will be punished because they do not want to accept things true and correct.

    Answer: So, did Jesus really appear in your church whenever your church assembled. Who are the first selected members of your church? It is inaccurate to say that you believe in the Scripture. Actually, you believe in your own interpretation of the Bible. No more, no less.

    O the hypocrites, you have not read in Scripture that tells us all that, “Where there are two or three people gathered to pray in My name, I will in the middle of them.” With the injunction of Scripture Holy that we can know that Jesus Christ is with those who believe, and believe in Him. Jesus Christ has shown Himself to the 12 Disciples and women who believe at the time so He lifted up to heaven. Which one is more important and major?

    Jesus Christ shows himself among us, and we believe Him, because He has shown Himself?

    Or

    We believe in Jesus Christ, even though He did not show up, but, in our prayers and we are always together?

    Choose whichever is more important? Not have been written in Scripture that “He who believes in me, not only believes, but also to him that I sent.” (John 12:44) Why do we need to believe in Jesus Christ? Because He shows Himself or because of faith? It is more important is we need to trust and believe in Him, not because He showed Himself both as a sign, but, because the Bible meaning.

    Be the first person chosen by Jesus Christ is the 12 Disciples. Did you know it will? All Christians who believe in this case, that is 12 Disciples Congregation (Church) who first established by Jesus Christ Himself. If what is recorded in Scripture is not correct, then the Scripture that you read now not true also. By that case, you should check before they throw opinions. Each of what I say is based on the injunction contained in Scripture.

    O ye hypocrites, ye know that Scripture is given to man to become a guide to them? People who read the Scripture to know the contents, contained in the Scripture. However, the Lord of the Most High will better know the contents of the human heart. Lord of the Mighty knows what has happened, is happening, and what people will do. God is ever Knower, Seer.

    Prove to us, what you say is not from you as man? Prove it to us that what you say is “the Word of God Most High” and not “opinion and explanation that you as human”? Prove that every sentence you write here is “your writing” rather than ” God the Most High Verse “? Prove that you not people to us?

    Answer: From the Bible, did Jesus really built His Church and named it as “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”. Jesus did mention ‘my church’ but He did not mention “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ” church. There is NO EVIDENCE to support your claim. None from the Bible and none from the world history. Ask any Protestant the name of the first Church ever built by Jesus. The answer is always the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I don’t think you can simply quote one of two verses from the Bible and says that this is the proof that Jesus founded “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”

    Congregation (Church) is the first among the 12 Disciples. 12 Disciples are followers (Follower / Adherent) to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Refer to Matthew 10:1 tells that Jesus Christ chose as his 12 Disciples and sent them to the public (Matthew 10:5). 12 Disciples called His followers because they are able and willing to tackle all the challenges and unexpected (Mark 10:38-40). You still do not understand what I try to explain? “My Church” is the same meaning with “people who believe in Jesus”. If the person does not believe in Jesus Christ, how Jesus Christ could say them as “My Church”? What about people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, whether they can be called as “my church”? Certainly “the pagan” will not be called “My Church” by Jesus Christ because they do not believe. Why 12 Disciples called “my Church” by Jesus Christ? This is because they believe in Jesus Christ.

    Did you know, Jesus Christ never mention “My Church” as “Roman Catholic Church”. Holy Scripture never wrote any people believed to Jesus Christ as “Roman Catholic Church”. Holy Scripture wrote them as “My Church”. Please prove it to us if “Roman Catholic Church” was built by Jesus Christ. Please prove to us if “My Church” is “Roman Catholic Church” based on Holy Scripture. Prove to us Jesus was went to Rome and built “Church” in Rome based in Holy Scripture. I knew you couldn’t found it in Holy Scripture. This is because Jesus Christ never been there before. Wake up, o ye hypocrites.

    Answers: I never said that Peter built the Church of Christ. Who give you this idea? St Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic Church and this Church was founded/built by Jesus [Mat 16:18]. There is no need for you to make a lengthy statement. You are wasting time trying to prove something which is not an issue.

    Have you ever read the Letter of Paul to the Corinthians? In the letter, Paul has been explaining what the purpose of Congregation (Church) is to us.

    I am writing to Gods “church” in Corinth, to you who have been called by God to be his own people. He made people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. (1 Cor 1:2)

    Letter of Paul to the Corinthians, we know that the Congregation (Church) of God in Corinth known as “Church” by Paul. Paul could only write a letter to the Corinthians as “Corinthian Church” as you tell her that you are “Roman Church”. The question, whether you “Roman”? Are you a citizen of “Rome”? Not my brother. Civil non-citizens Rome. Why are they called Congregation (Church) by Paul? This is because they have faith and believe in Jesus the Messiah.

    Roman Catholic neglect to realize that even if the church was founded on Peter, there is nothing in this passage to infer that his status was passed on to the Popes.

    Whether we are not “churches” according to his opinion, because we do not acknowledge “Roman Church” as the main pillar? O thou hypocrite, do you not know that Jesus Christ did not call the Congregation (Church) that consists of 12 Disciples as “Roman Church”. Jesus Christ calls them as “my church” because they are people who believe in Him.
    Did you know what Paul said to Corinthians? Paul told to us in First Epistle of Paul to Corinthians as;

    I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose. For some members of Chloe’s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters. Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollo’s,” or”I follow Peter” or “I follow only Christ.” Has Christ been divided into factions? Was, I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not! (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

    O ye hypocrites, ye know that all “the Roman Catholic Church” followers says that St. Peter founded the Congregation (Church)? Why are you not the same faith with them? Are you apostates? Very strange what you say.

    Even if these were not true, and Peter was the rock upon which the church was founded, there is still no Biblical reason to think that Peter’s authority was passed on to others, and that the Popes are his successors. Neither is there reason to believe that this idea was accepted by the early church.

    Prove to us that, St. Peter handed power to his “Pope” according to Scripture. Certainly you will not be found. This is because St. Peter never surrenders power to anyone. Very strange belief you?

    Answer: The Church is a visible organization. The head of the Church is Jesus Christ, whereas the Pope is His Vicar (the visible head of the Church on earth). Sola scripture is false. You have to study the Sacred Tradition in order to know the Truth. The word ‘pope’ means ‘papa’ or father. You won’t find the word ‘trinity’ in the Bible. Even the word ‘bible’ can’t be found in the Bible itself. To add more, the false doctrine ‘sola scripture’ is also not found in the Bible. The popes existed long before the Church compiled the Holy Bible. Jesus never mentioned the word ‘bible’. Nor has he instructed His followers to read the Bible!

    O the hypocrites, ye know that Jesus Christ never says no “Father” in this world except God Most High only? Have you ever read the Scripture, that Jesus Christ says there is no “father” but “Father” of the Most High God?

    And do not address anyone here on earth as “Father”, for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. (Matthew 23:9)

    Why do you state that the Pope as the “father”, while Jesus Christ himself said no one the same level as this? Is “Pope” is more powerful than “Our Father in heaven”? Certainly you will say NO, because you have no proof that can confirm this. Although you say that “Pope” has a high spiritual status, whether the “Pope” is more powerful than God the Most High? NO. “Pope” has no power over himself, but God the Most High will stand firm on His own power and Incomparable.

    Would funny, when you say Jesus Christ appoint “Pope” as the Vicar (the visible head of the Church on earth)? Did you know that Paul says that Jesus Christ is “the High Priest”? Is Jesus Christ requires a “Vicar” to perform His entire mandate? Did mention “Pope” shall be and must to be appointed based on Holy Scripture? NEVER. Holy Scripture never mention that. Holy Scripture just mention to us just “Our Father in Heavens” is our Spiritual Father and not “Pope”. Wake up, o hypocrites. How could you say “Pope” is “visible head of the Church on earth”? Did you know just Jesus Christ is “head of Church” not ever in earth but in heaven as well. Jesus Christ never gives His Power, Authority and Holiness to “Pope”. Prove it if you could be found it.

    There is just no real foundation to the idea that one man, other than Jesus Christ Himself, has the authority over us that the Pope claims to have, although there are good reasons why He may want us to believe it. Since the true church is founded on Jesus Christ, we should find a church that does not preach another salvation based on works and sacraments, BUT ONE WHICH HAS AS ITS BASE AND THE HOLY SCRIPTURE ONE THE WHOLE WORLD IN THE NAME GIVEN TO MEN BY WHICH WE ARE TO BE SAVED. THE NAME IS JESUS CHRIST. KING OF KINGS. SHINE OF SHINES. HOLY OF HOLIES. SAVIOR AND REDEMEER.

    Jesus became a Priest, not by meeting the requirement of psychical belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that can not be destroyed. (Hebrew 7:16)

    Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the honor place beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven? (Hebrew 8:1)

    O the hypocrites, “Bible” that means “Book”. You will not it? “Holy Bible” means “Holy Scripture”. In Scripture, we will find the term “Holy Scripture” is used to replace the words “Holy Bible”. Did you understand more what?

    O thou hypocrite, I never talked about the “Trinity”? Who is the founder of “Trinity”? Everybody knows that Jesus Christ never spoke about the “Trinity” in the Gospel Book. Jesus Christ did not relate the concept of “Trinity”. More hypocrites that you reject faith.

    O the hypocrites, ye know that Jesus Christ readied the Book of Isaiah? Did you know that Jesus Christ is a skilled Torah about Scripture? Bible Scripture has been telling it.

    Then Jesus returned to Galilee, filled with the Holy Spirit’s power. Reports about him spread quickly through the whole region. He regularly taught in their synagogues and was praised by everyone. When he came to the village of Nazareth, his home Boyhood, he went as usual to the synagogues on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where this was written: (Luke 4:14-17)

    because you said that Jesus Christ never commanded 12 Disciples read Scripture, then you are not eligible to read the Scriptures because you do not believe the Gospel content Scripture. It’s the attitude you hypocrites.

    Who can forbid us to read Scripture? Jesus the Messiah shall read Scripture Torah and the Prophets. Why can not we read? Yea, O people of hypocrisy.

    If you can be comfortable in a church WITHOUT taking your Holy Scripture, there is probably something wrong.

    You say that “Popes” has existed before Scripture collected. St. Peter had died in 65 AD and St. John had died in 110 AD. Scripture Bible was written and collected during the period by the Disciples and other followers. Gospel of Mark wrote in 55 AD – 65 AD, the Gospel of Matthew wrote in 60 AD – 65 AD, the Gospel of Luke wrote in 60 AD, and the Gospel of John wrote in 90 AD. Scripture Bible never says that even St. Peter as the “Pope” and use the title “Pope”. Prove it if any.

    Sacred Tradition can not save people. See how, Jesus Christ condemned the Pharisees and the Sadducee prefer “Sacred Tradition”. Sacred Tradition only just the Holy Sacraments. It is to worship only. Have you ever read the Scriptures, offering could not entertain the heart of God Most High, but only sincere prayer is desired by God the Most High? This is equivalent only to cases of “Sacred Tradition”; it can not show that we are more generous than “Pure Heart” which is required by God the Most High. In Scripture we have been told that Jesus Christ Himself condemned them too adhere to the “Sacred Tradition”. You asked me to learn from Sacred Tradition. How the Holy Scripture? Is Holy Scripture is not correct? Did the story in Holy Scripture is not true? The question is, did “Sacred Tradition” is more Correct, True, and Accurate and Complete? Prove it if Jesus Christ has commanded to 12 Disciples to believe in “Sacred Tradition”. You couldn’t found in Holy Scripture because Jesus Christ never gives that command.

    I am very surprised with the “Pope” and “Priests” in Vatican City to live in a beautiful house and beautiful. Using a beautiful robe as king. Well guarded as queen. However, the followers of the teachings of “Pope” and “Vatican Priests” living in poverty. Look at Brazil, Mexico, Philippine, Spain, Portugal, Peru, Argentina and India. Seminary priests living in a beautiful, but people living in a bad place. Not directly follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ who lives in humble and simple. There is “Priest” that luxury. But Jesus Christ and the 12 Disciples living in humble circumstances. Is that the teachings of “Jesus Christ – Version of Roman Catholic Church”? Jesus Christ is told in Holy Scripture never commands 12 Disciples live in luxury. Jesus Christ commanded 12 Disciples to live in simple conditions, to help the poor, sell property, to help widows and orphans, helping the sick, help the stranger who came to their house. Why “Priest” is not so? Did “Sacred Tradition” teaching to the luxurious life? NO.

    May I ask again, who is the leader of your church at the moment? Please answer my question, thank you.
    Congregation (Church) was established until now. Jesus Christ is our leaders, past, now and forever. Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Gospel are our guides and our references. You do not be lost if you really understand and follow what the Holy Scripture teaching.

    Jesus became a PRIEST, not by meeting the requirement of psychical belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that can not be destroyed. (Hebrew 7:16)

    Here is the main point: We have a HIGH PRIEST who sat down in the honor place beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven! (Hebrew 8:1)

    Answer: Please answer my questions. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use? Please be specific. Thank you.

    Scripture is One and can not be changed. Scripture can not be denied Authentic and Authenticity.

    Scriptures that we use are:

    • 5 Books of Moses (Pentateuch Hebrew and Samaritan Pentateuch) – Masoretic Text and Samaritan Text – Hebrew Writing
    • Ketuvim – Masoretic Text – Hebrew Writing
    • Navi’im – Masoretic Text and Qumran Scroll – Hebrew Writing
    • Septuagint – Greek Manuscript and Syriac Peshitta – Hebrew and Greek Writing
    • Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Brit Chadasha) – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing
    • Acts and Revelation – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing
    • General Epistles of Jude, John, James, Peter, Paul and the Epistle to the Hebrews – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing

    I have to give evidence relating to the complete Scripture which we trust at Vatican Library and Jerusalem Jewish Library and Jews Synagogue. I hope you have no problem with the Scripture that we trust. There is no problem for us to read, write and understand the Hebrew language, Aramaic and Greek. We pray in Hebrew as Jesus Christ and the 12 Disciples to communicate in that language.

  11. Answer: There is no need to explain to me about the Roman Catholic Church. What was the year your church started by your founder? What is the name of your founder? Your church originated from which country?

    Year of establishment Congregation (Church) we are in, day and time, when Jesus Christ called the 12 Disciples of the group that many people (Mat 10:1, Mark 3:14, Luke 6:13) in the hilly areas. Founder of Congregation (Church) is our Jesus Christ. 12 Disciples are among the earliest believed, and believe in Jesus Christ, and they are First Congregation (Church). First Congregation (Church) came from Israel, namely the original Jesus Christ and not Rome. We do not prefer over Rome, because Rome is not the original birth place of Jesus Christ. Hope you will understand what I say.

    My brother, do not you try to say that Jesus Christ was built “Congregation (Church) Roman Catholic.” Jesus Christ has never been to Rome and He had never built Congregation (Church) in Rome and named Congregation (Church) he as a “Roman Catholic Church”. Hypocrisy, my brother.

    Yea, O people of hypocrisy. Did you know Symbolum Apostolicum (Apostles’ Creed) is never read by adding the words “Roman Catholic Church”?

    Sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,

    Mean

    The holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,

    First Christian believer has written Symbolum Apostolicum, and they never say of themselves as “Roman Catholic Church”. First Christian believer that identify themselves as “Catholic Church”. This is because they understand and know the meaning of Congregation (Church) itself which means Universal, One, Holy and Apostolic. Why are you doing not know about Symbolum Apostolicum we read every day? Why you are still not understood? Naturally, you already understand, but you do not want to understand. Attitude you like Pharisees and Sadducee. Know the full and smooth, but they will be punished because they do not want to accept things true and correct.

    Answer: Where is the evidence that your church is the Church of Christ? Definitely not in the Bible or World History! Jesus built His Church which is known today as the Roman Catholic Church and this fact is traceable from the Sacred Tradition and History of the Church. Even if you say that the Church does not come from Rome (which is actually not relevant to our discussion), it does not prove that your church is the Church of Christ. Telling me that the Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ DOES NOT makes your claim even truer.

    If you can’t find the term ‘Roman Catholic Church’ in the Bible, it means you have to look elsewhere. Have you heard the term Sacred Tradition? I don’t believe in ‘sola scripture’ for the simple reason that I am CATHOLIC. But because you are a PROTESTANT and believe in ‘sola scripture’ then it is your duty to prove your claim based on the Bible only. Otherwise, you are telling me a fairy tale story which I am not interested.

    Answer: So, did Jesus really appear in your church whenever your church assembled. Who are the first selected members of your church? It is inaccurate to say that you believe in the Scripture. Actually, you believe in your own interpretation of the Bible. No more, no less.

    O the hypocrites, you have not read in Scripture that tells us all that, “Where there are two or three people gathered to pray in My name, I will in the middle of them.” With the injunction of Scripture Holy that we can know that Jesus Christ is with those who believe, and believe in Him. Jesus Christ has shown Himself to the 12 Disciples and women who believe at the time so He lifted up to heaven. Which one is more important and major?

    Jesus Christ shows himself among us, and we believe Him, because He has shown Himself?

    Or

    We believe in Jesus Christ, even though He did not show up, but, in our prayers and we are always together?

    Choose whichever is more important? Not have been written in Scripture that “He who believes in me, not only believes, but also to him that I sent.” (John 12:44) Why do we need to believe in Jesus Christ? Because He shows Himself or because of faith? It is more important is we need to trust and believe in Him, not because He showed Himself both as a sign, but, because the Bible meaning.

    Be the first person chosen by Jesus Christ is the 12 Disciples. Did you know it will? All Christians who believe in this case, that is 12 Disciples Congregation (Church) who first established by Jesus Christ Himself. If what is recorded in Scripture is not correct, then the Scripture that you read now not true also. By that case, you should check before they throw opinions. Each of what I say is based on the injunction contained in Scripture.

    O ye hypocrites, ye know that Scripture is given to man to become a guide to them? People who read the Scripture to know the contents, contained in the Scripture. However, the Lord of the Most High will better know the contents of the human heart. Lord of the Mighty knows what has happened, is happening, and what people will do. God is ever Knower, Seer.

    Prove to us, what you say is not from you as man? Prove it to us that what you say is “the Word of God Most High” and not “opinion and explanation that you as human”? Prove that every sentence you write here is “your writing” rather than ” God the Most High Verse “? Prove that you not people to us?

    If you can’t see Jesus and does not appear in your church, so who is your leader/elder/pastor/president in your prayer service? Who has the authority or is in charge to declare the official and ‘correct’ interpretation of the Bible? Not Jesus, because He did not appear in your congregation! Please do not evade from giving me a direct answer to my simple question: Who is the leader of your congregation? I want a name, please, thank you. Perhaps you could give me a link to your church’s official website.

    Answer: From the Bible, did Jesus really built His Church and named it as “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”. Jesus did mention ‘my church’ but He did not mention “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ” church. There is NO EVIDENCE to support your claim. None from the Bible and none from the world history. Ask any Protestant the name of the first Church ever built by Jesus. The answer is always the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I don’t think you can simply quote one of two verses from the Bible and says that this is the proof that Jesus founded “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ”

    Congregation (Church) is the first among the 12 Disciples. 12 Disciples are followers (Follower / Adherent) to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Refer to Matthew 10:1 tells that Jesus Christ chose as his 12 Disciples and sent them to the public (Matthew 10:5). 12 Disciples called His followers because they are able and willing to tackle all the challenges and unexpected (Mark 10:38-40). You still do not understand what I try to explain? “My Church” is the same meaning with “people who believe in Jesus”. If the person does not believe in Jesus Christ, how Jesus Christ could say them as “My Church”? What about people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, whether they can be called as “my church”? Certainly “the pagan” will not be called “My Church” by Jesus Christ because they do not believe. Why 12 Disciples called “my Church” by Jesus Christ? This is because they believe in Jesus Christ.

    Did you know, Jesus Christ never mention “My Church” as “Roman Catholic Church”. Holy Scripture never wrote any people believed to Jesus Christ as “Roman Catholic Church”. Holy Scripture wrote them as “My Church”. Please prove it to us if “Roman Catholic Church” was built by Jesus Christ. Please prove to us if “My Church” is “Roman Catholic Church” based on Holy Scripture. Prove to us Jesus was went to Rome and built “Church” in Rome based in Holy Scripture. I knew you couldn’t found it in Holy Scripture. This is because Jesus Christ never been there before. Wake up, o ye hypocrites.

    That is your private interpretation. What can I say? Should I believe you or should I believe ‘my church’? I insist that you quote the Bible to prove your claim, but you can’t! Our discussion should be based on ‘sola scripture’ otherwise how to argue! How do you know that “Adherents teachings of Jesus Christ” church is the true Church of Christ? Can you prove that from the Bible? Once again, you can’t! So how can I believe you? Why do keep on talking about the Roman Catholic Church, our discussion is about your church which you claim to be the true Church of Christ. Proving the Catholic Church to be false does not make your statement true? Understand? Please learn from your church leader how to argue properly, otherwise, we are wasting our time here.

    Answers: I never said that Peter built the Church of Christ. Who give you this idea? St Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic Church and this Church was founded/built by Jesus [Mat 16:18]. There is no need for you to make a lengthy statement. You are wasting time trying to prove something which is not an issue.

    Have you ever read the Letter of Paul to the Corinthians? In the letter, Paul has been explaining what the purpose of Congregation (Church) is to us.

    I am writing to Gods “church” in Corinth, to you who have been called by God to be his own people. He made people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. (1 Cor 1:2)

    Letter of Paul to the Corinthians, we know that the Congregation (Church) of God in Corinth known as “Church” by Paul. Paul could only write a letter to the Corinthians as “Corinthian Church” as you tell her that you are “Roman Church”. The question, whether you “Roman”? Are you a citizen of “Rome”? Not my brother. Civil non-citizens Rome. Why are they called Congregation (Church) by Paul? This is because they have faith and believe in Jesus the Messiah.

    This is your private interpretation of the Bible. What can I say? The Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with your church. Saying that the RC Church is false does not make your statement truer. Saying that an apple is not an apple does not make an orange is really an orange. Get it?

    Roman Catholic neglect to realize that even if the church was founded on Peter, there is nothing in this passage to infer that his status was passed on to the Popes.

    Sola scriptura again. There is nothing I can do if you reject the Sacred Tradition. Not everything is written in the Bible. If you read the history of the Church, you will find that authority was passed down to another bishop, St Linus. Remember, the word ‘Trinity’ also does not appear in the Bible, does it mean Trinity is false?

    Whether we are not “churches” according to his opinion, because we do not acknowledge “Roman Church” as the main pillar? O thou hypocrite, do you not know that Jesus Christ did not call the Congregation (Church) that consists of 12 Disciples as “Roman Church”. Jesus Christ calls them as “my church” because they are people who believe in Him.
    Did you know what Paul said to Corinthians? Paul told to us in First Epistle of Paul to Corinthians as;

    I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose. For some members of Chloe’s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters. Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollo’s,” or”I follow Peter” or “I follow only Christ.” Has Christ been divided into factions? Was, I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not! (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

    O ye hypocrites, ye know that all “the Roman Catholic Church” followers says that St. Peter founded the Congregation (Church)? Why are you not the same faith with them? Are you apostates? Very strange what you say.

    Please stop putting words into my mouth. I DID NOT say that St Peter founded Roman Catholic Church. I said: St Peter is the first Pope of the Church. Do you understand? You have no authority to act in the name of Jesus.

    Even if these were not true, and Peter was the rock upon which the church was founded, there is still no Biblical reason to think that Peter’s authority was passed on to others, and that the Popes are his successors. Neither is there reason to believe that this idea was accepted by the early church.

    Prove to us that, St. Peter handed power to his “Pope” according to Scripture. Certainly you will not be found. This is because St. Peter never surrenders power to anyone. Very strange belief you?

    You have decided to reject the Roman Catholic Church as the Church of Christ. It is pointless to prove anything to you. It is you who initiate this discussion saying your church is the true church of Christ. So, prove to me that your church is the true church, until now, you haven’t give me a proof yet. All you do was to say that RC Church is the false church to back up your claim that you were right. This is not the proper way to argue. Please learn from you elders first.

    Furthermore, I reject sola scripture. You prove your point by saying it can’t be found in the Bible. You reject Sacred Tradition. But can you prove to me that your church is the Church of Christ? Where is the proof?

    Answer: The Church is a visible organization. The head of the Church is Jesus Christ, whereas the Pope is His Vicar (the visible head of the Church on earth). Sola scripture is false. You have to study the Sacred Tradition in order to know the Truth. The word ‘pope’ means ‘papa’ or father. You won’t find the word ‘trinity’ in the Bible. Even the word ‘bible’ can’t be found in the Bible itself. To add more, the false doctrine ‘sola scripture’ is also not found in the Bible. The popes existed long before the Church compiled the Holy Bible. Jesus never mentioned the word ‘bible’. Nor has he instructed His followers to read the Bible!

    O the hypocrites, ye know that Jesus Christ never says no “Father” in this world except God Most High only? Have you ever read the Scripture, that Jesus Christ says there is no “father” but “Father” of the Most High God?

    And do not address anyone here on earth as “Father”, for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. (Matthew 23:9)

    Why do you state that the Pope as the “father”, while Jesus Christ himself said no one the same level as this? Is “Pope” is more powerful than “Our Father in heaven”? Certainly you will say NO, because you have no proof that can confirm this. Although you say that “Pope” has a high spiritual status, whether the “Pope” is more powerful than God the Most High? NO. “Pope” has no power over himself, but God the Most High will stand firm on His own power and Incomparable.

    Again, your own private interpretation, and as usual, highly flawed (incorrect). Read these verses and interpret them yourselves.

    Mark 11:9-10
    And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

    Matthew 23:29-31
    [Jesus speaking in same chapter as the "Don't call men 'fathers' verse] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    Luke 6:23
    [Christ speaking] Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

    Romans 4:1
    What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

    Romans 4:11-18
    And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    Romans 9:3-5
    For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Romans 11:28
    As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

    I Corinthians 4:14-17
    I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. [NIV: "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel."] [NASB: "For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." -- He not only talks about spiritual fatherhood in these verses, he differentiates the spiritual fatherhood of the presbytery from common teachers about Christ.]

    1 Corinthians 10:1
    Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    Galatians 1:14
    And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    Galatians 4:19-20
    My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

    Philippians 2:19-22
    But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s. But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

    1 Thessalonians 2:11-12
    As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

    1 Timothy 1:2
    Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1 Timothy 5:1
    Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

    Philemon 1:10
    I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: [ESV: "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment."]

    So, stop talking about the pope. Where is the verse that support sola scripture?

    Would funny, when you say Jesus Christ appoint “Pope” as the Vicar (the visible head of the Church on earth)? Did you know that Paul says that Jesus Christ is “the High Priest”? Is Jesus Christ requires a “Vicar” to perform His entire mandate? Did mention “Pope” shall be and must to be appointed based on Holy Scripture? NEVER. Holy Scripture never mention that. Holy Scripture just mention to us just “Our Father in Heavens” is our Spiritual Father and not “Pope”. Wake up, o hypocrites. How could you say “Pope” is “visible head of the Church on earth”? Did you know just Jesus Christ is “head of Church” not ever in earth but in heaven as well. Jesus Christ never gives His Power, Authority and Holiness to “Pope”. Prove it if you could be found it.

    There is just no real foundation to the idea that one man, other than Jesus Christ Himself, has the authority over us that the Pope claims to have, although there are good reasons why He may want us to believe it. Since the true church is founded on Jesus Christ, we should find a church that does not preach another salvation based on works and sacraments, BUT ONE WHICH HAS AS ITS BASE AND THE HOLY SCRIPTURE ONE THE WHOLE WORLD IN THE NAME GIVEN TO MEN BY WHICH WE ARE TO BE SAVED. THE NAME IS JESUS CHRIST. KING OF KINGS. SHINE OF SHINES. HOLY OF HOLIES. SAVIOR AND REDEMEER.

    Jesus became a Priest, not by meeting the requirement of psychical belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that can not be destroyed. (Hebrew 7:16)

    Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the honor place beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven? (Hebrew 8:1)

    I am not interested to talk more about pope because it is out of the topic. If you are really sincere, please visit this website: http://www.fisheaters.com/rock.html

    O the hypocrites, “Bible” that means “Book”. You will not it? “Holy Bible” means “Holy Scripture”. In Scripture, we will find the term “Holy Scripture” is used to replace the words “Holy Bible”. Did you understand more what?

    Where in the Bible can we find the word ‘bible’? Where in the bible that says: Holy Scripture is the Bible? What is the definition of Bible? When the term ‘Holy Scripture’ was used, the Bible does not exist yet! Remember: sola scriptura. Stop calling me names such as ‘hypocrites’. Argue like a gentlemen.

    O thou hypocrite, I never talked about the “Trinity”? Who is the founder of “Trinity”? Everybody knows that Jesus Christ never spoke about the “Trinity” in the Gospel Book. Jesus Christ did not relate the concept of “Trinity”. More hypocrites that you reject faith.

    Show me, where in the Bible that says ‘Trinity’? Have you forgotten the Sacred Tradition? DO NOT make assumption that ‘everybody knows’? Do you reject the doctrine of ‘Trinity’? If you do, then it is useless to continue arguing with you.
    O the hypocrites, ye know that Jesus Christ readied the Book of Isaiah? Did you know that Jesus Christ is a skilled Torah about Scripture? Bible Scripture has been telling it.

    Then Jesus returned to Galilee, filled with the Holy Spirit’s power. Reports about him spread quickly through the whole region. He regularly taught in their synagogues and was praised by everyone. When he came to the village of Nazareth, his home Boyhood, he went as usual to the synagogues on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where this was written: (Luke 4:14-17)

    because you said that Jesus Christ never commanded 12 Disciples read Scripture, then you are not eligible to read the Scriptures because you do not believe the Gospel content Scripture. It’s the attitude you hypocrites.

    Who can forbid us to read Scripture? Jesus the Messiah shall read Scripture Torah and the Prophets. Why can not we read? Yea, O people of hypocrisy.

    If you can be comfortable in a church WITHOUT taking your Holy Scripture, there is probably something wrong.

    Who says you cannot read the Bible? Please do NOT make false accusation/statement. There is nothing wrong with me. But there is something wrong with you, self-righteous, self-appointed preacher. It is wrong for you to embrace Protestantism, and sola-scriptura is definitely wrong! Prove to me that sola-scriptura is biblical.

    You say that “Popes” has existed before Scripture collected. St. Peter had died in 65 AD and St. John had died in 110 AD. Scripture Bible was written and collected during the period by the Disciples and other followers. Gospel of Mark wrote in 55 AD – 65 AD, the Gospel of Matthew wrote in 60 AD – 65 AD, the Gospel of Luke wrote in 60 AD, and the Gospel of John wrote in 90 AD. Scripture Bible never says that even St. Peter as the “Pope” and use the title “Pope”. Prove it if any.

    Why don’t you read it from this link: http://www.fisheaters.com/rock.html
    If you reject papacy, then why don’t you just go elsewhere. My blog is not meant for people like you.

    Sacred Tradition can not save people. See how, Jesus Christ condemned the Pharisees and the Sadducee prefer “Sacred Tradition”. Sacred Tradition only just the Holy Sacraments. It is to worship only. Have you ever read the Scriptures, offering could not entertain the heart of God Most High, but only sincere prayer is desired by God the Most High? This is equivalent only to cases of “Sacred Tradition”; it can not show that we are more generous than “Pure Heart” which is required by God the Most High. In Scripture we have been told that Jesus Christ Himself condemned them too adhere to the “Sacred Tradition”. You asked me to learn from Sacred Tradition. How the Holy Scripture? Is Holy Scripture is not correct? Did the story in Holy Scripture is not true? The question is, did “Sacred Tradition” is more Correct, True, and Accurate and Complete? Prove it if Jesus Christ has commanded to 12 Disciples to believe in “Sacred Tradition”. You couldn’t found in Holy Scripture because Jesus
    Christ never gives that command.

    Before the Bible was given to us by the Roman Catholic Church, the faith was passed down from one generation to another by way of mouth (verbally) which means the Sacred Tradition.
    “And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.” [2 Thessalonians 3:6]

    I am very surprised with the “Pope” and “Priests” in Vatican City to live in a beautiful house and beautiful. Using a beautiful robe as king. Well guarded as queen. However, the followers of the teachings of “Pope” and “Vatican Priests” living in poverty. Look at Brazil, Mexico, Philippine, Spain, Portugal, Peru, Argentina and India. Seminary priests living in a beautiful, but people living in a bad place. Not directly follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ who lives in humble and simple. There is “Priest” that luxury. But Jesus Christ and the 12 Disciples living in humble circumstances. Is that the teachings of “Jesus Christ – Version of Roman Catholic Church”? Jesus Christ is told in Holy Scripture never commands 12 Disciples live in luxury. Jesus Christ commanded 12 Disciples to live in simple conditions, to help the poor, sell property, to help widows and orphans, helping the sick, help the stranger who came to their house. Why “Priest” is not so? Did “Sacred Tradition” teaching to the luxurious life? NO.

    So now you want to change the topic. Have you ever visited and entered the Pope’s private room? Do you think the Pope’s private room is equipped with luxurious things? What about you and your elders? Are you all living in shambles? Do you have computers, television, cable tv, radios, washing machines, toasters etc in your house? Do you wear shoes or just sandals? Do you drive cars or riding on a donkey? Remember: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods. [I don’t want to discuss about the papacy anymore, it is out of the topic].

    May I ask again, who is the leader of your church at the moment? Please answer my question, thank you.
    Congregation (Church) was established until now. Jesus Christ is our leaders, past, now and forever. Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Gospel are our guides and our references. You do not be lost if you really understand and follow what the Holy Scripture teaching.

    Jesus became a PRIEST, not by meeting the requirement of psychical belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that can not be destroyed. (Hebrew 7:16)

    Here is the main point: We have a HIGH PRIEST who sat down in the honor place beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven! (Hebrew 8:1)

    YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION.

    Answer: Please answer my questions. From where did you get your Bible from? What is the publisher or the official name/version of the Bible you use? Please be specific. Thank you.
    Scripture is One and can not be changed. Scripture can not be denied Authentic and Authenticity.

    Scriptures that we use are:

    • 5 Books of Moses (Pentateuch Hebrew and Samaritan Pentateuch) – Masoretic Text and Samaritan Text – Hebrew Writing
    • Ketuvim – Masoretic Text – Hebrew Writing
    • Navi’im – Masoretic Text and Qumran Scroll – Hebrew Writing
    • Septuagint – Greek Manuscript and Syriac Peshitta – Hebrew and Greek Writing
    • Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Brit Chadasha) – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing
    • Acts and Revelation – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing
    • General Epistles of Jude, John, James, Peter, Paul and the Epistle to the Hebrews – Testamentum Greace – Greek Writing

    I have to give evidence relating to the complete Scripture which we trust at Vatican Library and Jerusalem Jewish Library and Jews Synagogue. I hope you have no problem with the Scripture that we trust. There is no problem for us to read, write and understand the Hebrew language, Aramaic and Greek. We pray in Hebrew as Jesus Christ and the 12 Disciples to communicate in that language.

    YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. Anyway, why do you trust the Vatican Library, Jerusalem Jewish Library and Jews Synagogue Library? Who give you the complete list of the Bible without any error? Jesus?




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